[MTG] The voxel simulator that could

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[MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

I'd like to contribute some thoughts about finding a purpose for MTG.
As incomplete as it is, I know how important (and rewarding) it must be to develop something both fun and useful for the community.

I'm all for setting the scope of MTG to an Earth simulator, here's why;

PROS
  1. More solid goals: to be a great blocky sim and a great game / modding base;
  2. a clearer vision could help bring in more contributors;
  3. overcomes the issue of converting the sim to a different game easily: it would have way less gameplay features in the way of modding it, just change, remove or add what you need from the sim;
  4. blocky software excels at this (I didn't say game! :p).
  5. you can add more to the list
CONS
  1. The massive, "catastrophic" organizational changes this requires (like integrating it back into the engine, long term goal);
  2. harder to create mods and games that stray away or arent't compatile with terrain simulation, but you and I already know those belong to other engines anyway.
  3. you can add more to the list

Having said that: Is this something too involved for the amount of core dev support it would require? Should this be the focus of a fork of MTG instead (I believe it's not)?
Last edited by Eris on Thu Nov 18, 2021 13:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Erm, I guess this change is way more far fetched than I had anticipated.
That's what happens when you don't consider changing something from a game to a singleplayer/multiplayer platform means people will be less interested, duh. -_-
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Mantar » Post

I'm unclear on what "setting the scope of MTG to an Earth simulator" is supposed to mean. So I just kinda moved on, sorry.
Maybe if you could explain what it is first? It sounds like it's probably a good idea, but the thing is that ideas are cheap and plentiful; it's the effort it takes to make ideas happen that's always in short supply.

There's also the fact that MTG has massive support inertia -- so many existing mods depend on it that any major changes will break a huge amount of content, which is why MTG has been kind of left to sit as a legacy thing.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

No worries, it's a complex topic, so I'll try to explain (man, this took ages to type...): the context is that I've been reading the issues regarding MTG on github, why it's development was frozen; I am also playing with mods like GAL, that make the world really realistic, and this post is the result of the brainstorming that followed. ^^
I wrote about this because I feel compelled to, ultimately, help others see:
  1. why an Earth simulation is beneficial to development of Minetest games;
  2. and also, how standardization of the type of games possible on voxel engines is a good thing.
Point 1 is all about MTG, because in it's current state it's a half decent sim, but not an impressive game. Why I'm suggesting going the simulation route? Because then we'd have found a purpose which it can fulfill, with less difficulty for the core devs even; and I also think, whichever way you put it, voxel software as a whole was pretty much made to simulate a space in 3D. I'm of the idea that all games can benefit from this change: they all try to simulate a space and elements (dirt, villages, liquids, whatever..), so instead of restarting the game creation process from scratcht, simply change the corresponding parameters, defined in the "MTG" sim I described. It also would have no gameplay interfering with a game creator's vision for their game. This new MTG would be finally both fun and interesting, and a solid simulator which can be altered, to create any game you'd like.

With point 2, I mean that IMHO if we were to e.g. recreate pacman in Minetest (keeping the 2D classic style and overview camera), we'd be missing out on all the advantages the engine gives to game/ mod creators!
Why not find an engine more suited for that kind of game, maybe even a simpler one? If you really want that game/ mod type in Minetest, just know it would be more complex to create, define and maintain ('cause it's best suited for 3D and simulating a space with nodes; you wouldn't find much support). I say this knowing full well how much of that type of content is already available: I'm just vouching against recommending people create any more of it.

I hope I was clearer with what I am describing; also to note is that I am not a coder yet, so this is as much as I can contribute for now (except bug reports I guess), but in the future, I'd like to see this engine do great things, so be on the lookout for my PR's! hehe

Do you think all the mods/ games can't be made compatible given enough time? I believe just the effort to reintegrate MTG in the engine will be too much, but I see this sim idea as the only way to move forward with game creation.
Thanks for reading, bless you.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Mantar » Post

So, what you want is to integrate GAL into MTG? Because that's the only actionable idea I can see in here, the rest seems to be just telling me how this "earth simulator" idea would be great, without any specifics on what it involves.
Do you think all the mods/ games can't be made compatible given enough time?
I think any major changes to MTG's structure will break hundreds and hundreds of mods that have been built on it over the past decade or so, and most of them have no maintainers anymore so that's a lot to ask. MTG is deprecated anyway, you should build your earth simulator as a new game, perhaps forked from MTG. That way, mods for MTG will still either work or not work, but nobody would be mad about it.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Linuxdirk » Post

Eris wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 23:09
I believe just the effort to reintegrate MTG in the engine will be too much, ...
Why the hell integrate something super specific like MTG in something so unspecific like a voxel engine? This just doesn't make any sense. When I want to create a racing game why should I want tools for breaking nodes?

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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Blockhead » Post

I actually don't think Minetest is, or will or should become, a voxel simulator in the sense you describe. In my conclusion I'll discuss what your idea is closer to, but first... Let's reason about what Minetest engine is actually made of for a bit. It's made of nodes, which are aligned on a 3D grid, and entities that have floating point coordinates on that grid

Nodes have complex, even intricate behaviour. There are elementary nodes like stone or cobblestone which have very little behaviour. Others have simple behaviours, like grass that spreads to dirt, gravel & sand that fall or water that spreads (engine feature). Finally we have nodes with complex behaviours, which often even store more information than what is 'native' to the engine, by adding node metadata or custom mod files - examples include a technic furnace or a mesecons FPGA. A lot of that final type have formspecs.

Also import to note about nodes is they come in many drawtypes - normal cubes, plant-like, rail-like, custom meshes and a few others. They are not, by the strictest definition, voxels. Voxels (volumetric pixels/volume elements) by a strict definition are all cubes. It is for this reason I can't in good faith call Infiniminer-Minecraft derivatives voxel games. I call them Blocky - others sometimes say Block - games.

Entities are different and act as complex agents in the world. Even in a pure voxel engine they might remain unchanged.

Most games on the engine take after Minetest Game and have a lot of formspecs. Only a few, like Nodecore, don't follow this pattern. If nodecore-like games based on physical and direct properties of nodes, and arrangements of nodes, were all that we wanted to make on Minetest Engine, then I might even agree that we should develop the engine to improve performance around simulating them. We would write highly efficient realistic water spreading, cheaper falling sand. Like others have discussed we might add more layers to the world than just the nodes - thermodynamic temperature, presence or absence of air, even humidity. I won't go into them in depth, some people have discussed them ad nauseam elsewhere in these forums.

As Mantar mentioned MTG will remain MTG and successors will or won't be forked from it, but MTG will be itself still.

The problem I see with going in the physics simulator direction is a sharp break from where the engine's games are at. There's no point adding features people simply won't use in their game. For example if nodes had temperature, there'd be temperature in Minetest Game all of a sudden, even though it's never had a conception of temperature before. When it comes to these features from a Minetest Game point-of-view - at best if they can all be turned off, it's an anti-lag feature to revert back to old behaviour. At worst, it breaks compatibility. The middle ground is wasted computation and wasted time configuring around things.

So back to my conclusion: No, Minetest Engine won't become the voxel physics simulator. But! That doesn't mean such a simulator couldn't exist or wouldn't make sense. It would be more like powder game (the original is here). The original powder game was a great toy, a great game. The first I know of in its genre, and it inspired derivatives in Powder Toy and later Noita. Probably others I don't know about. Taking the genre 3D presents unique challenges; I'm reaching the edge of my knowledge for sure here! Has someone tried that? Nevertheless, I hope you can see how different the pixel/voxel physics simulation genre is from Minetest, and why it should be a different game engine. There are quite simply different considerations to be built into different types of games and their engines.

Further reading: further games that are fundamentally not Blocky games, but are highly sandbox-like like Infini-Minecr-test:
  • Space Engineers & Medieval Engineers - featuring voxel terrain
  • Valheim - featuring heightmap terrain
  • Universe sandbox
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Thank you very much for the thoughtful responses everyone, it's really intriguing to think of ways to (eventually) solve issues like this to me, somehow.
Responding to your points is taking longer than I'd liked; but anyway, I'm sooo happy I could start a meaningful discussion about this topic, that isn't just beating a dead horse.

Blockhead,
I'll check out the further reading section, thanks a lot!
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Let me preface by saying that this topic is about finding purpose and a use for MTG in the future, and not about implementing everything in the engine, to create separate content from MTG.
Mantar wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 18:14
So, what you want is to integrate GAL into MTG? Because that's the only actionable idea I can see in here, the rest seems to be just telling me how this "earth simulator" idea would be great, without any specifics on what it involves.
Do you think all the mods/ games can't be made compatible given enough time?
I think any major changes to MTG's structure will break hundreds and hundreds of mods that have been built on it over the past decade or so, and most of them have no maintainers anymore so that's a lot to ask. MTG is deprecated anyway, you should build your earth simulator as a new game, perhaps forked from MTG. That way, mods for MTG will still either work or not work, but nobody would be mad about it.
MTG already paints nice earthen landscapes and geology; the only thing I'd remove would be, specifically, the various elements and features that make up the raw gameplay (mese, dungeons, a day/ night cycle shorter than the IRL one, etc., which can all be added back with mods and games), because they'd obviously be in the way of creating a faithful simulation experience, and this last goal would need to become paramount for this new "MTG" sim. Would something else need to be removed, according to you?

Regarding the GAL mod, I'm of the idea that MTG is kind of Earth-like enough already, so it can stay as a mod; I also don't think further increasing the burden of this change of scope would be a good idea.

The content generated by users could just stick with the prior Minetest version/s it worked in, for a while; then, when the engine finishes reabsorbing MTG and everything is hunky dory, it can be updated to work on the Minetest simulator.
I don't see much harm in healthy change, nor what's "not actionable" about it; but maybe I'm missing something?
Linuxdirk wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:28
Eris wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 23:09
I believe just the effort to reintegrate MTG in the engine will be too much, ...
Why the hell integrate something super specific like MTG in something so unspecific like a voxel engine? This just doesn't make any sense. When I want to create a racing game why should I want tools for breaking nodes?
You are definitely right, Linuxdirk. I'm sorry, but I didn't mean the current MTG here; it would first need to shrug off it's classic gameplay, only then would it be ready.
Regardless, I'm really glad this came up, because IMHO a racing game in the making would have needs that are similar to those of planet simulation;
which is my point: it would still need to be configured to turn it's feature set on/ off according to your use case, but after you'd have your game, in a framework that can work for nearly any game, I believe.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Linuxdirk » Post

Eris wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 20:15
it would still need to be configured to turn it's feature set on/ off according to your use case, but after you'd have your game, in a framework that can work for nearly any game, I believe.
So you say, instead of just using the voxel engine by itself I also need to configure stuff that was “forced” on me without any real need or use?

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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Yes, I believe it's needed.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by firefox » Post

personally, i'd like to keep it the way it is.

yes, it may be more appealing to have more materials but it wouldn't change much about the situation at hand.
current MTG also allows you to edit biomes and stuff, but i have a very different idea for my own game so editing parameters in MTG to suit my needs is actually more work than simply creating a new game.
and since it was my idea, i want to use the mod structure and naming scheme that i want.

the more a new game's biomes/ores/ect. deviate from the standard, the more work it is to edit and adjust all those node definitions and parameters. and if it doesn't deviate that much at all, you could just make a mod instead of copying the entire game base for just a few changes.

currently most mods depend on MTG. but just because they are all for the same game doesn't mean they are all compatible. in fact they aren't.
at the same time, most games are pretty much the same because they all use the same stuff from MTG.
most games are actually just a copy of MTG with some minor tweaks and added mods. they all use the same classification of stone, sand and dirt, the same steel and mese, the same sword/axe/pickaxe/shovel made of all available materials.
it's easy to use this base and bulk it up with even more materials and items that are most likely just palette swaps.
but it's an extreme effort to edit all this to create a game that is different, and it doesn't encourage doing so.

you can't have a base game that is universally appealing to everyone and at the same time includes everything imaginable. it's better to let the user decide what game they want to use.
even though those new mapgen mods are big and look very impressive, they are completely useless for the mapgen mod that i want to use in my game.

if you want to have a game base that only generates terrain but doesn't include game elements like tools and craft recipes, you could just make one. i don't see why it has to be hardcoded into the engine (and therefore be much more restricted to editing).
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 15:00
Spoiler
I actually don't think Minetest is, or will or should become, a voxel simulator in the sense you describe. In my conclusion I'll discuss what your idea is closer to, but first... Let's reason about what Minetest engine is actually made of for a bit. It's made of nodes, which are aligned on a 3D grid, and entities that have floating point coordinates on that grid

Nodes have complex, even intricate behaviour. There are elementary nodes like stone or cobblestone which have very little behaviour. Others have simple behaviours, like grass that spreads to dirt, gravel & sand that fall or water that spreads (engine feature). Finally we have nodes with complex behaviours, which often even store more information than what is 'native' to the engine, by adding node metadata or custom mod files - examples include a technic furnace or a mesecons FPGA. A lot of that final type have formspecs.

Also import to note about nodes is they come in many drawtypes - normal cubes, plant-like, rail-like, custom meshes and a few others. They are not, by the strictest definition, voxels. Voxels (volumetric pixels/volume elements) by a strict definition are all cubes. It is for this reason I can't in good faith call Infiniminer-Minecraft derivatives voxel games. I call them Blocky - others sometimes say Block - games.

Entities are different and act as complex agents in the world. Even in a pure voxel engine they might remain unchanged.

Most games on the engine take after Minetest Game and have a lot of formspecs. Only a few, like Nodecore, don't follow this pattern. If nodecore-like games based on physical and direct properties of nodes, and arrangements of nodes, were all that we wanted to make on Minetest Engine, then I might even agree that we should develop the engine to improve performance around simulating them. We would write highly efficient realistic water spreading, cheaper falling sand. Like others have discussed we might add more layers to the world than just the nodes - thermodynamic temperature, presence or absence of air, even humidity. I won't go into them in depth, some people have discussed them ad nauseam elsewhere in these forums.

As Mantar mentioned MTG will remain MTG and successors will or won't be forked from it, but MTG will be itself still.

The problem I see with going in the physics simulator direction is a sharp break from where the engine's games are at. There's no point adding features people simply won't use in their game. For example if nodes had temperature, there'd be temperature in Minetest Game all of a sudden, even though it's never had a conception of temperature before. When it comes to these features from a Minetest Game point-of-view - at best if they can all be turned off, it's an anti-lag feature to revert back to old behaviour. At worst, it breaks compatibility. The middle ground is wasted computation and wasted time configuring around things.

So back to my conclusion: No, Minetest Engine won't become the voxel physics simulator. But! That doesn't mean such a simulator couldn't exist or wouldn't make sense. It would be more like powder game (the original is here). The original powder game was a great toy, a great game. The first I know of in its genre, and it inspired derivatives in Powder Toy and later Noita. Probably others I don't know about. Taking the genre 3D presents unique challenges; I'm reaching the edge of my knowledge for sure here! Has someone tried that? Nevertheless, I hope you can see how different the pixel/voxel physics simulation genre is from Minetest, and why it should be a different game engine. There are quite simply different considerations to be built into different types of games and their engines.

Further reading: further games that are fundamentally not Blocky games, but are highly sandbox-like like Infini-Minecr-test:
  • Space Engineers & Medieval Engineers - featuring voxel terrain
  • Valheim - featuring heightmap terrain
  • Universe sandbox
Well, don't forget about Minetest's main strength though: it's moddability! Formspecs would be added by modding the simulation accordingly. :D
I guess it's part of the initial tweaking of the "MTG" sim.

I added a preface to my last post that addresses your concerns: we're in here discussing about helping you create awesome games in Minetest, but also about this sim idea. You would have the whole base simulator already there to be used, with "infinite" possibilities; what I've been trying to say is that the sim would be a selling point as well; just alone and unmodded.
So, I wouldn't say that there's no point to adding features to the sim.

Idk, I think most content created in the engine would be fine and not affected much, from this issue around making the sim and a game gel together nicely.
Most are just another type of simulation anyway, maybe a different planet, a past or future Earth, Hell, someone's personal mod stew, etc.: they'd all still need most features that constitute the sim already ('cause it'd make a very detailed blocky game); and they could easily borrow them from a stable, maintained and, most importantly, central location.

I didn't know these were called blocky games, will mind that in the future, thanks.


firefox,

please read the preface to my last post.
firefox wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 13:56
current MTG also allows you to edit biomes and stuff, but i have a very different idea for my own game so editing parameters in MTG to suit my needs is actually more work than simply creating a new game.
and since it was my idea, i want to use the mod structure and naming scheme that i want.
This is a bit of a dev issue, so I can't help much here, sorry. All I can hazard is I'd go with the tried and tested method that works well for everyone?
firefox wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 13:56
it's easy to use this base and bulk it up with even more materials and items that are most likely just palette swaps.
but it's an extreme effort to edit all this to create a game that is different, and it doesn't encourage doing so.
I agree, that's why this won't be done tomorrow or next year even, it would be a long term goal for the engine.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Wuzzy » Post

Just leave MTG alone. There is a reason why it has been set into maintenance mode, meaning no major features (or any features) are being added. The reason is compability with servers. Which makes sense.

I think creating new games instead is much more important for Minetest than working on MTG. All the focus, the obsession even, with MTG is what has been holding back the community for years. Eventually one of the new games can then replace the "default game", if we even want to have a default game at all.

I've proposed before the concept of featured games. The showcase of the best games we have. Which is also suprt important for "marketing" purposes, so to say.

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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 21:56
Just leave MTG alone. There is a reason why it has been set into maintenance mode, meaning no major features (or any features) are being added. The reason is compability with servers. Which makes sense.
I believe it's possible to recreate current MTG in the new sim; it ofc would be after the period in which servers stay without new engine features, on a stable Minetest release. It's just a palliative.
As I said in the third of the pros in my main post, a simulator is plenty versatile for game creation.
I think creating new games instead is much more important for Minetest than working on MTG. All the focus, the obsession even, with MTG is what has been holding back the community for years. Eventually one of the new games can then replace the "default game", if we even want to have a default game at all.
Dunno about a default game, or feauted games, it sounds really nice, tbh; but it'd still be important to include the Earth simulator in the engine too, IMO. After all, this thread is all about games being based on the sim. Otherwise, I completely agree.
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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Linuxdirk » Post

Eris wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 14:43
I believe it's possible to recreate current MTG in the new sim;
But the current MTG is fucked up beyond repair. It works as what it is, but it is neither something to aim for nor something to start new projects with.

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Re: [MTG] The voxel simulator that could

by Eris » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 17:28
But the current MTG is fucked up beyond repair. It works as what it is, but it is neither something to aim for nor something to start new projects with.
Ahah yep. They were just talking about compatibility, idek.
If servers really need that, it could be there. ;)
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