Luanti Documentation project

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Luanti Documentation project

by Blockhead » Post

The Luanti Documentation project is now established, and the team have been working in it for some time. This project replaces the MediaWiki wikis. It now uses GitHub Pages, and contribution is done through GitHub with pull requests, instead of the separate, invite-only account system of the previous system.

I paraphrase ROllerozxa from the old wiki account request thread (ref):

The Luanti Documentation lives at docs.luanti.org. This is a change in direction from the original developer wiki.

We have also just finished moving over all relevant non-MTG related pages from the regular wiki (see #15), which was shut down and now redirects to the migrated pages on the Luanti documentation site.

We welcome everyone to join in and contribute to the new documentation project. There is also no doubt a lot of clean-up that needs to be made for the content that has been imported. You do not need to request an account to contribute any more, either! See the About This Site page for more information.

This announcement post was made to promote the project after de-stickying the old wiki account thread. If anyone wants ownership, just ask and I can transfer it to your forum account, or just PM/respond with changes.
Last edited by Blockhead on Wed Feb 05, 2025 01:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Add link for about page
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Re: [OBSOLETE] Wiki account requests

by anim_artel » Post

and for the translations, how does it work ?

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by RH9 » Post

anim_artel wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 09:15
and for the translations, how does it work ?
hugo (the ssg that powers the docs) has an in-built multilingual mode.
so if i'm interpreting the docs correctly, there are multiple possible outcomes depending on how the multilingual mode is configured (with the assumption that the language you're translating to has been already enabled in the configuration).
  1. if translation by content is not enabled, you create all the files in the content directory but they all end in a suffix consisting of their language codes followed by a full stop (e.g. _index.en.md for english, _index.de.md for german, _index.fr.md for french, _index.it.md for italian, _index.zh.md for chinese, etc.)
  2. if you are in the same situation as above, you don't necessarily need the same file name before the suffix if you set translationKey in the frontmatter to the same string
  3. if translation by content directory is enabled, you instead separate files into directories that were configured to accept content from the language (e.g. content/en/_index.md for english, content/de/_index.md for german, content/fr/_index.md for french, content/it/_index.md for italian, content/zh/_index.md for chinese, etc.)
hope this helps!

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by Nininik » Post

Can i join?
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Re: [OBSOLETE] Wiki account requests

by ROllerozxa » Post

anim_artel wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 09:15
and for the translations, how does it work ?
There are no translations right now when the content so much in flux. If you have any ideas for how to set up translations for when things stabilise and there are people who show up wanting to translate things then that would be appreciated. We are not going to repeat the mistake as on the Wiki(s) where translated pages effectively fork the English page and drift off until they diverge so much that it gets deleted and someone needs to retranslate it, it ends up being a waste of time both for editors and translators.
Nininik wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 16:00
Can i join?
You don't need to ask permission to contribute. Just make edits and open pull requests to the repository. The edit link at the bottom of pages will take you to Github's web editor for the given page and it will then guide you to open a PR for the change.

We also discuss things on IRC at #minetest-docs on irc.libera.chat, which is also bridged to the Discord server as #minetest-docs-irc.
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Re: [OBSOLETE] Wiki account requests

by Blockhead » Post

ROllerozxa wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 16:11
We also discuss things on IRC at #minetest-docs on irc.libera.chat, which is also bridged to the Discord server as #minetest-docs-irc.
Will you be following suit with the rest of the channels and switching to the Luanti name?
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Re: [OBSOLETE] Wiki account requests

by ROllerozxa » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 16:36
ROllerozxa wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2025 16:11
We also discuss things on IRC at #minetest-docs on irc.libera.chat, which is also bridged to the Discord server as #minetest-docs-irc.
Will you be following suit with the rest of the channels and switching to the Luanti name?
Hopefully yes, but celeron55 would need to do that and then the IRC logging bot needs to be updated to reflect the new name as well as the bridges to Discord and Matrix.
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by Wuzzy » Post

I said it before and I say it again:

I don't like the insertion of more proprietary software into the workflow. Not great that now apparently the only way to contribute to the wiki is through the bottleneck called GitHub pull requests.
This feels like a downgrade.

But even if it were on websites without proprietary JavaScript, the fact that now basically every tiny typo change has to trigger a full-blown review process means that wiki updates will come to a screeching halt. I predict the wiki will basically be very stagnant and get outdated fast because even if you convince people to contribute, you now ALSO have to find people willing to review. Congratulations, you just pointlessly doubled the required workload! That's a great way to ensure burnout!

I can at least accept the need to ditch the heavyweight MediaWiki software, but I am NOT happy with the replacement at all.

And since it appears this change is non-negitionable, I’m afraid you've basically lost me as a wiki/docs/whatever contributor. I’ve contributed for years in the past, and I’m very disappointed. Even if I overlook the fact I'd have to use GitHub more, the fact that every change must trigger a full review process (including all the exhausting back-and-forth) means I’m definitely out. This is just way too stressful to me. :-(

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by cx384 » Post

It's nice to see that people invest time into the documentation, but I agree with Wuzzy. It should not rely on GitHub.
It's not a wiki anymore, but a big documentation document instead. The characteristics of a wiki 1 and 3 are not fulfilled by the new documentation, as far as I can tell.
  1. "A wiki invites all users—not just experts—to edit any page or to create new pages within the wiki website, using only a standard 'plain-vanilla' Web browser without any extra add-ons."
  2. "Wiki promotes meaningful topic associations between different pages by making page link creation intuitively easy and showing whether an intended target page exists or not."
  3. "A wiki is not a carefully crafted site created by experts and professional writers and designed for casual visitors. Instead, it seeks to involve the typical visitor/user in an ongoing process of creation and collaboration that constantly changes the website landscape."
This is not necessarily a bad thing, but for our case it's probably worse, since it requires more work and is less inclusive.
However, I may not be the right person to ask, since I'm not involved in it very much.
Can your read this?

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by Nininik » Post

I can't comment in the docs channel?
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by ROllerozxa » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 00:44
[...] the fact that now basically every tiny typo change has to trigger a full-blown review process means that wiki updates will come to a screeching halt. I predict the wiki will basically be very stagnant and get outdated fast because even if you convince people to contribute, you now ALSO have to find people willing to review. Congratulations, you just pointlessly doubled the required workload! That's a great way to ensure burnout!

And since it appears this change is non-negitionable, I’m afraid you've basically lost me as a wiki/docs/whatever contributor. I’ve contributed for years in the past, and I’m very disappointed. Even if I overlook the fact I'd have to use GitHub more, the fact that every change must trigger a full review process (including all the exhausting back-and-forth) means I’m definitely out. This is just way too stressful to me. :-(
The activity has been very high for the past two months that the project has been ongoing comparing to the more or less derelict state of the old wiki, and pull requests are very quick to merge, so you are incorrect in that assumption. We do not have the same approval process that the engine has for PRs, and there is generally less necessary to get one merged here. In addition to this we generally allow ourselves in the Docs team (as well as the wider Luanti team in the organisation such as coredevs) to push changes directly to master for smaller or more localised changes when we find it appropriate, and anyone who wants to actively contribute to the documentation is a candidate for becoming a team member. Currently we're about 5 active members on the team not including other coredevs who are also involved.

In fact you were offered to join the Docs team since you were both a staff member and active editor of the old Wiki as well as a knowledgeable community member, which would make you able to push commits like editing a wiki and discuss things on the IRC channel. But you ignored the offer, and I haven't even seen you in the #minetest-docs (now #luanti-docs) IRC channel for the time that this new project has been going on.
cx384 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 13:15
It's not a wiki anymore, but a big documentation document instead.
Yes, it is not a wiki anymore. This is why it is not called a wiki, and any "wiki" mentions in the content we've migrated from the old Wiki will be cleaned up within due time. We're still going to make the PR process as quick as possible for contributors, since documentation is generally living documents and trying to perfect things is unnecessary when things can be merged and edited afterwards if things generally look okay.
cx384 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 13:15
This is not necessarily a bad thing, but for our case it's probably worse, since it requires more work and is less inclusive.
It requires less work because there is no Wiki software that needs maintenance and can degrade and break down by neglect (as was the case with the old Wiki), edits can span across multiple pages so find-and-replace job can be done in bulk on the whole content (e.g. renaming mentions of Minetest to Luanti, and the subsequent domain renames. Wuzzy spent a lot of time editing wiki pages seemingly for hand and one-by-one to rename every occurrence to Luanti, while we can do a find-and-replace in bulk, review the diff, open a PR and get it merged within the hour), as well as other bulk actions such as performing automatic spell checking on the entire content which we are in the gradual process of doing.

It is also more inclusive because you do not need to nag a handful of busy core developers to get an account, since anyone can register a Github account (or at least the restriction is psychological, as compared to physical).
Nininik wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 16:37
I can't comment in the docs channel?
If you're talking through the Discord server you need to be a certain rank to have access to the IRC channels, to reduce the fallout from compromised accounts spamming channels and flooding into the IRC channels. You can join it from IRC as well as on Matrix, which does not have this restriction.
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by Linuxdirk » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 00:44
Not great that now apparently the only way to contribute to the wiki is through the bottleneck called GitHub pull requests.
The technical nonsense and administrative decisions aside: that this makes Luanti even more depending on the goodwill of Microsoft.
Wuzzy wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 00:44
the fact that every change must trigger a full review process (including all the exhausting back-and-forth)
Seeing that some reviews took months in the past also does not encourage everyone participating in the wiki statically rendered documentation page.

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by RH9 » Post

going on a tangent, are there requirements for joining the docs team?
edit: i think i found my answer. ignore this.

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by RH9 » Post

btw, is there any way in which i can help with the cleanup rn? i'd be more than happy to do so.

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by mark-wiemer » Post

Hi all, new contributor but someone who's helped migrate the wiki. Full disclosure, I do work for Microsoft, but I'm doing this work in my free time because Luanti is better than Minecraft ;)

Yes, the new site is integrated with GitHub. This made is very easy for us to deploy changes through GitHub Actions and accept changes through GitHub pull requests. However, none of this is new: The Luanti engine is developed through GitHub as well, so this greatly simplifies the workflow and removes the need for new contributors to create a MediaWiki account, which was difficult to say the least.

Additionally, there is much less maintenance for the core team, as the MediaWiki infrastructure was overall failing, but GitHub Pages is free for any project.

Personally, and I know I'm biased, the goodwill of Microsoft is pretty high. If GitHub Pages were to go down, there would be plenty of advance notice, and we'd have everything we need to transition to a custom hosting system. If GitHub as whole becomes worse, we can easily migrate the git repo to a new host, and something like GitHub Actions could likely be replaced, as we're using pretty standard tasks.

For those concerned about PR reviews taking a long time, they're generally merged within 30 minutes. It's real fast. Because this is just text, we don't have to worry about compilation issues or build times or anything like that. As soon as someone's online, they'll be able to check through the queue. We are enforcing PRs for new contributors to prevent spam, but as mentioned above, trusted users may be granted push access to quickly add minor changes without waiting for reviews.

Overall, the new flow is different, but I believe it's much easier for developers to contribute to. Please give it a try and let us know your thoughts after tinkering around :)
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by mark-wiemer » Post

RH9 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 22:50
btw, is there any way in which i can help with the cleanup rn? i'd be more than happy to do so.
Feel free to checkout the open issues on GitHub! Always happy to chat in #luanti-docs-irc as well
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by RH9 » Post

mark-wiemer wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 01:40
RH9 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 22:50
btw, is there any way in which i can help with the cleanup rn? i'd be more than happy to do so.
Feel free to checkout the open issues on GitHub! Always happy to chat in #luanti-docs-irc as well
thanks! i'll check it out.

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by celeron55 » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 00:44
I said it before and I say it again:

I don't like the insertion of more proprietary software into the workflow. Not great that now apparently the only way to contribute to the wiki is through the bottleneck called GitHub pull requests.
This feels like a downgrade.

But even if it were on websites without proprietary JavaScript, the fact that now basically every tiny typo change has to trigger a full-blown review process means that wiki updates will come to a screeching halt. I predict the wiki will basically be very stagnant and get outdated fast because even if you convince people to contribute, you now ALSO have to find people willing to review. Congratulations, you just pointlessly doubled the required workload! That's a great way to ensure burnout!

I can at least accept the need to ditch the heavyweight MediaWiki software, but I am NOT happy with the replacement at all.

And since it appears this change is non-negitionable, I’m afraid you've basically lost me as a wiki/docs/whatever contributor. I’ve contributed for years in the past, and I’m very disappointed. Even if I overlook the fact I'd have to use GitHub more, the fact that every change must trigger a full review process (including all the exhausting back-and-forth) means I’m definitely out. This is just way too stressful to me. :-(
Everything is negotiable. However, everything needs someone to be the one to do it. I was fed up with hosting the wikis, so that wasn't one of the options anymore. I also didn't want to maintain the burden of moderating the wikis on anyone. I appreciate your dedication on it, though.

I think you completely underestimate the openness of the docs team. There is absolutely no need on the docs team to be nearly as stringent as the engine team (also called the core team), because it's very difficult to cause loss of data and information security issues by writing docs. If you want to join the docs team, chances are you can. And if you want to fix a typo, just fix it like you would on a wiki - you don't need to stress about it or write a long PR description - just do the bare minimum, everyone gets it. It won't get merged immediately, that's obvious, but also its merging is not something for you to stress about.

I agree switching from FOSS Mediawiki to proprietary Github is a bad thing and I would be open to having the docs project be the first one to move to codeberg. However, before this would be done, I need the count of how many existing docs contributors are going to drop out because of this, and how many new ones are going to come in because of this. It's unfortunate that there is such a divide in the community. Are you ready for a poll?

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by rudzik8 » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:27
I agree switching from FOSS Mediawiki to proprietary Github is a bad thing and I would be open to having the docs project be the first one to move to codeberg. However, before this would be done, I need the count of how many existing docs contributors are going to drop out because of this, and how many new ones are going to come in because of this. It's unfortunate that there is such a divide in the community. Are you ready for a poll?
Unsure whether the 'you' here is royal, but will assume it is.

Some of you who were familiar with my username might've noticed that https://github.com/rudzik8 leads to a 404. All my issues, all my PRs, everything -- gone. But if I log into it...
Spoiler
Image
I haven't removed it, I've been shadowbanned from GitHub. Yes, that's a thing.
The reason? I opened an issue on the Winamp repo back when it was a thing and when the spam siege happened. That attack involved a lot of Russian-speaking accounts. And mine got purged too. Yet non-Russian-speaking accounts that have done similar actions on the repo within that same timeframe were not affected, at least not to my knowledge.

Well surely it can't be that bad! Yes, all I have to do is contact the support.

Oh. You have to verify by SMS before you can open a new ticket. No problem, I can buy SMS activations.

Oh. I have to give Microsoft my real phone number.

Oh. My real phone number doesn't work either.

Oh...

The solution seems far too simple, right? Just create a new account! But at the time of it all happening I already had all the stuff I cared about on Codeberg and used GitHub just to contribute to Luanti and the Luanti-related projects that still use it for whatever reason. You can tell that I wasn't too keen on doing that by the fact that I created https://github.com/wmikita only after a few months had passed.

And they don't just hide issues and PRs and repos and your whole profile. All of my commits are now missing my profile (both the pic and the link!), as if there was a broken mailmap. I was no longer considered a contributor. Less than a Ghost that replaces deleted accounts in issue comments.

Just because I was in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and probably wrote in the wrong language in my profile and the issue in question as well.

And Microsoft can do that to anybody if another big company calls and says the magic words. You could call it off as fearmongering for a few years now but it's here. And it has been for a long time.
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by celeron55 » Post

@rudzik8 that does sound pretty bad. I have pledged to move out from Github once M$ messes it up, and this is one coin into that jar.

However, doing that requires widespread support from the community, so please take note and set your scales accordingly. Some day, the decision has to be made.

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by Mantar » Post

Codeberg has its own "Pages" setup, I haven't used it but I would hazard a guess that they built it to be compatible with Github Pages so that migration would be easy, as that seems to be a goal for the related Forgejo project
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by LMD » Post

The technical nonsense
I disagree. Having a wiki was technical nonsense, and it showed and resulted in a bunch of practical nonsense, ranging from very bad website availability to spam floods.

Generating a documentation page from a repo via a SSG is a very appropriate and established means of managing documentation for software projects. We never had the critical mass of high-quality documentation writers that warrants a wiki. We never needed a wiki.
this makes Luanti even more depending on the goodwill of Microsoft
Mark has essentially already said it, but to make sure the point comes across: We're only depending on GitHub to a very limited degree. We primarily use the free static site generator Hugo to generate the site from a bunch of Markdown files. This is very portable. GitHub only comes into play for some very basic actions to publish the generated site: There's a workflow to deploy the site (and a trivial dependabot workflow to check for new versions of things, and a workflow to build PRs using Hugo to check for errors). Overall it amounts to < 100 lines of YAML which do conceptually rather simple things and should be rather easy to port to e.g. Codeberg's CI.

The value of the Luanti Documentation Project, and most of the work, does not lie in these < 100 lines of YAML, and is not at all "locked into" GitHub; it's just a portable Git repo source to be built using Hugo.
It could be moved to Codeberg in an afternoon.
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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by Linuxdirk » Post

LMD wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 23:17
I disagree. Having a wiki was technical nonsense, and it showed and resulted in a bunch of practical nonsense, ranging from very bad website availability to spam floods.
Also: MediaWiki syntax is inferior to Markdown. But having a wiki is inferior to not having one. It just needs to be properly maintained and moderated. I see that there is not enough manpower in the dev team right now (also, devs are not automatically good wiki moderators/maintainers).

But an annoyingly annoying bunch of annoyingness when it comes to fix typos also can’t be a long-term solution.

Btw. did you know that public Git hosting services usually have a free wiki integrated, where the wiki is technically just another repo? So everyone having the right permissions for the Luanti repo could also edit the wiki without having to create a pull request and wait minutes, to hours, to days for the PR being approved.
LMD wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 23:17
It could be moved to Codeberg in an afternoon.
The bet is on! 😂👍

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by yw05 » Post

LMD wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 23:17
There's a workflow to deploy the site
This is quite doable: Codeberg has a guide on manually pushing SSG output to Pages, and I already have a somewhat similar workflow with ldoc (although with Woodpecker instead of Forgejo Actions).

A minor thing to note is that we will (eventually) need to use (i.e. push to) separate branches if we wish to use the pages repository for multiple sites, but this is largely a matter of updating DNS records.

Side note if we use Woodpecker: Woodpecker can also work with Github (in fact, Woodpecker itself is hosted on Github), so we could first try things out on a temporary/testing Woodpecker server while still remaining on Github (and using Github Actions in parallel), and then migrate to Codeberg with its Woodpecker instance once we are satisfied with the results. This should hopefully minimize the time period where things are "split" between Github and Codeberg.
and a trivial dependabot workflow to check for new versions of things
There seems to be Renovate for this. However, I do not have any experience with this, and it seems like we need to self-host it. That said, I assume we can set this up later after the migration, so I don't think this is blocking.

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Re: Luanti Documentation project

by real_mineplayer » Post

LMD wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 23:17
It could be moved to Codeberg in an afternoon.
I can just agree and recommend to do this tobe independent of Microsoft. All contributors with a Github account could also use it so sign in for Codeberg, so I think this would be the best option after a self-hosted Git (e.g. Forgejo) for the Core and Mods.

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