[Server] Tunnelers' Abyss

[GoldFireUn]

Yes I had made a mod request on TA, after I noticed the staff issue. Why? At that point I still wasn't convinced the admin was anti-lgbt. I figured I'd made some mod suggestions, one of which was that pride flag mod.

You baited the admins knowing full well it would be rejected. Also, thank you for confirming that this was a job: that is, you and livphi did not make the request in good faith. From the sound of things, it seems you didn't drop it after getting the first "no"; you kept pushing. Getting banned is an obvious consequence.

I have done no advertising of my server anywhere except a couple of discord servers. ....... I wouldn't try to bring about drama to do it.

You have posted on the TA page in such a way as to set your server into an adversarial relationship with theirs, while also promoting your own server. If livphi was acting without your implicit consent, you needn't have posted after they did. This is to create drama. Obviously.

We (the LGBTQ+ community) live in a hostile world where there is daily discrimination and harassment. Why would anyone want more?

Good question: why would someone who just wants to avoid persecution go around pushing their ideology in the faces of people whom they know full well are going to reject it? Those of us who have been around for a while can guess some answers to this conundrum, but going there is totally inadvisable.

LGBTQ+ topics are not inherently sexual anymore than heterosexual topics.

False. You do know what the letters stand for, right?

Nobody is making laws to "shield" children from heterosexual topics. Only LGBTQ+.

Not relevant.

[livphi]

1. It's not a lifestyle. It's not a choice. You can't choose to be gay or trans.

Not relevant.

2. Its okay to not want to be associated to someone. Its not okay to say that LBGTQ+ people shouldn't exist openly around children.

Self-contradictory. Also, see server rules.

3. There are families with 2 moms, 2 dads, with a trans parent, and there are trans and queer children. There are bisexual parents. How can you say that their decision is in the interest in families when they are excluding children and families?

This is your ideology, but not others'. Hard pass.

4. We did originally made a request to add the pride flags mod to TA.

Glad to have this officially confirmed.

But then CalebJ told me that his reason was that the flags aren't kid friendly and that's what isn't okay.

The fact that CalebJ told you the truth in a matter like this is highly surprising and a mark of a strong character. Most admins I am sure, would be radio-silent to avoid being persecuted, or simply make up an innocuous reason and stick to it.

5. Just because someone has the right to do something, doesn't mean that it should be seen as okay, or not be criticized. I have the right to think all puppies should go in meat grinders (i guess? just an example) but that doesn't make it okay. Are you gonna say that to someone who wants to grind puppies?

To the extent that this makes any sense at all (it actually doesn't), this is self-contradictory.

6. The grow staff wasn't very serious. It was just an observation.

You and FloraMae both brought it up, and you both wrote about it in such a way as to cause an inattentive reader to pass judgement on CalebJ in their own mind, without you having to actually say it. Sorry, but this is a smear tactic, not some kind of off-the-cuff observation.

7. If you don't play TA, why are you here? You just wanted to make a comment on something you know nothing about?

I thought it was pretty clear, but to reiterate: I saw that contradictory information had been posted to the ContentDB, and when I was made aware of this issue on the Tunnelers' Abyss page, I realized the information was important and needed to be shared. There's something else I could share too, but I'll hold off unless I get stronger evidence.

Learn what "contradictory" means. You should really take my advice.

[livphi]

Yes I had made a mod request on TA, after I noticed the staff issue. Why? At that point I still wasn't convinced the admin was anti-lgbt. I figured I'd made some mod suggestions, one of which was that pride flag mod.

You baited the admins knowing full well it would be rejected. Also, thank you for confirming that this was a job: that is, you and livphi did not make the request in good faith. From the sound of things, it seems you didn't drop it after getting the first "no"; you kept pushing. Getting banned is an obvious consequence.

I have done no advertising of my server anywhere except a couple of discord servers. ....... I wouldn't try to bring about drama to do it.

You have posted on the TA page in such a way as to set your server into an adversarial relationship with theirs, while also promoting your own server. If livphi was acting without your implicit consent, you needn't have posted after they did. This is to create drama. Obviously.

We (the LGBTQ+ community) live in a hostile world where there is daily discrimination and harassment. Why would anyone want more?

Good question: why would someone who just wants to avoid persecution go around pushing their ideology in the faces of people whom they know full well are going to reject it? Those of us who have been around for a while can guess some answers to this conundrum, but going there is totally inadvisable.

LGBTQ+ topics are not inherently sexual anymore than heterosexual topics.

False. You do know what the letters stand for, right?

Nobody is making laws to "shield" children from heterosexual topics. Only LGBTQ+.

Not relevant.

You're the only one that's baiting lol. Why don't you spend more time with your friends and family instead of being a troll.

[GoldFireUn]

Glad to see you have no more argument. Please stop posting pointlessly.

[livphi]

Do NOT join this server if you are LGBTQ+. ...

Meh, I always disapprove of transphobes, but here is my opinion: I am firmly of the idea that you and FloraMae both wanted a popularity boost for their server by starting petty drama around TA.
There has been a very nuanced, sneaky influx of petty trolls trying to pester and bring chaos to Minetest for more than a year now.
So judging by your mannerism and tone, I have a vague idea who is the behind this latest attempt at annoying us...

A butthurt troll.

I would advise people to think twice before giving a chance to the new server, seems like nothing good will come of it...

I was a little heated in my first post, I admit. I didn't start the drama. CalebJ did when he told me that he wants to discriminate against me and other people like me. The reason I showed the server IP is because I want new people to know that CalebJ is transphobic and homophobic, and if they want a more inclusive environment they should join validandloved.life . A lot of people there are disgruntled Tunneler's Abyss ex-players.

So, I guess my elaborate attempt at trolling is to many spend hours developing for a server (look at my git commits here https://gitlab.com/validandloved) and move all my building ideas to a new server, and reverse engineer a whole mod (please look at the repo, i did everything in it). I'm doing this because I want to "bring chaos" to minetest (by developing mods?) right? Or am I doing this because I want to create a safe environment for Tunneler's Abyss ex-players? I'm sorry for being butthurt when I'm discriminated in a server that I sunk so much time into. I had a whole city. I had a public factory that many people helped me with. I feel betrayed.

[GoldFireUn]

I didn't start the drama. CalebJ did when he told me that he wants to discriminate against me and other people like me.

No, you and FloraMae started it when you went on a fishing expedition.

Ironically, your alternative server will actually be less safe for you and everyone else, because of the simple fact that it will likely become a magnet for unpleasant behavior. For example, me and many other folks can have no expectation of safety on your server at all.

[livphi]

Here's a conversation I had with CalebJ that motivated me to make my own server similar to TA but without the bigotry.

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[livphi]

cont.

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[livphi]

I didn't start the drama. CalebJ did when he told me that he wants to discriminate against me and other people like me.

No, you and FloraMae started it when you went on a fishing expedition.

Ironically, your alternative server will actually be less safe for you and everyone else, because of the simple fact that it will likely become a magnet for unpleasant behavior. For example, me and many other folks can have no expectation of safety on your server at all.

I'm not arguing with you. Go do something else.

[livphi]

I consider the TA server to be the best technical server among public servers.
Many machines, automation, nuclear power, many different ores, a rich underground world, Digtrons, an excellent flora (many various trees), dinosaurs, the unique module Elements, many diverse building materials.

Yes, if we speak of the gaming side, the server is very interesting.
But when we look at the managing side, we see the worst server ever, I think.
Because we have to deal with inadequate admins/owners, unfortunately.
Players are waste, admins are Gods. This approach never works of course, and conflicts become an inevitable attribute of such servers.

This server is a didactic example demonstrating that some persons must not have authority at all:)

Personally, I was driven out of the server for I dared to discuss bugs of the server:)
The Freedom of Speech and Opinion? No, no, it is disallowed for puny players:)
I was considered to be waste after three years of my playing, contribution and just friendly behaviour.
A kick in my back was the only justice for me after three years.
I lost my buildings, friends, future plans and ideas, habitual in-game society.
The owner of this server does not understand how to use authority, when and why.

----------
livphi

"If you could give me a list of the elements mod recipes, or just any information about the TA elements mod, that would be greatly appreciated!"

I would recommend to read this message from "flux" ("rheo"). Maybe it will help.
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=411598#p411598
(Board index -> User-contributed Content -> Mods -> Modding Discussion -> Elements Mod)

The first discussion about problems of the Elements module arose several years ago.
As I understand, CalebJ is the main developer of this module.
This is a very interesting module, and any technical server should have such a module.
The point of this module is to get players to search for needed elements in the game world around.
That is why the phrase "a list of the elements mod recipes" is not correct.
An owner of a server should invent their own "recipes" for such a module.

I am not a developer, I am just a mediocre player, a former player of the TA server:)
Of course the minetest world should have an open source Elements module.
But creating such a module is a great labour!

The module should consist of two parts - a program part, and a database.
The former should be an open source code, have pictures, etc.
And the latter should be a list/database of "recipes" that can be changed at any time depending on fantasy and ideas of a server owner.

Also I want to note that this module is tied to the machines of the Technic module!
And most people do not like these machines because of the electric net glitches:)
That is why people often choose say the TechAge module to play and develop.

----------
FloraMae

"What drove me away from TA was the "grow staff" mixed with the admins attitude towards getting it fixed"

Indeed, it is very difficult to take part in developing on the TA server.
Even in order to improve a simple png-image on the server you have to bear a lot of disputes.
A player has to beg for loading their obvious improvements on the server from admins/owners.
This disgusting way of contribution deletes all the zeal of concerned players.
The admins/owners did not replace even simple textures of the sugar block after I had given them the ready new textures.
On the other hand, such clumsy "developers" as "pseudonyme" are allowed to add any buggy trash on the server any time.

I agree. TA has very great mods, don't get me wrong. It's why I want to add their mods to our server. But terrible management. And there is a lot of cronyism with the developers. I've tried to develop for them and they could treat new devs better. They should do a better job of listening if they want to keep their players.

Also, thanks for the feedback :) I will keep that in mind. I could make technic an optional dependency.

[GoldFireUn]

Thank you for posting those screenshots, they are VERY helpful. There's no bigotry on CalebJ's part, and it reveals much about your attitude. You have made an excellent argument for why Tunnelers' Abyss should get our support.

[DragonsVolcanoDance]

Here's a conversation I had with CalebJ that motivated me to make my own server similar to TA but without the bigotry.

Nothing I read in those screenshots was bigotry towards LGBTQ+. CalebJ's response to you was very respectful and clearly well-thought out, but instead of trying to understand him you called him an a*shole, insinuated he had a bad childhood experience, and then went on to publicly smear Tunneler's Abyss as being Anti-LGBTQ+ because they won't add the mod.

And to boot, that conversation was initially private and you decided to make it a public matter. You want to draw out private matters into the public eye, and then get defensive and claim "You don't want to argue about it."

What kind of response were you expecting?

All this, merely because they do not want to advertise and celebrate it openly in front of children by adding the Pride Flags mod.

This is not bigotry. This is protecting children from sexual topics.

And please don't claim that heterosexual relationships are allowed to be celebrated on TA. No one trying to fly a heterosexual flag anywhere on the server.

[livphi]

Here's a conversation I had with CalebJ that motivated me to make my own server similar to TA but without the bigotry.

Nothing I read in those screenshots was bigotry towards LGBTQ+. CalebJ's response to you was very respectful and clearly well-thought out, but instead of trying to understand him you called him an a*shole, insinuated he had a bad childhood experience, and then went on to publicly smear Tunneler's Abyss as being Anti-LGBTQ+ because they won't add the mod.

And to boot, that conversation was initially private and you decided to make it a public matter. You want to draw out private matters into the public eye, and then get defensive and claim "You don't want to argue about it."

What kind of response were you expecting?

All this, merely because they do not want to advertise and celebrate it openly in front of children by adding the Pride Flags mod.

This is not bigotry. This is protecting children from sexual topics.

And please don't claim that heterosexual relationships are allowed to be celebrated on TA. No one trying to fly a heterosexual flag anywhere on the server.

I'm not debating this. Treating LGBTQ+ people differently around children compared to straight and / or cis people is bigotry. Please educate yourself before you have an opinion about something (this is good advice in general).

[livphi]

All these replies I'm getting are proof that TA is not open to criticism. They will not listen to their players, and they certainly aren't open minded. I'm LGBTQ and they won't listen to me. How much do you want to bet that all these people who act like they know what LGBTQ people are, are themselves LGBTQ? Over here at validandloved.life , we accept criticism, we listen to our players, and feature requests and bug fixes are welcome on our gitlab! We support everyone and we are kid friendly. Those shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

[livphi]

And a plus, you are allowed to be LGBTQ+ and express yourself without getting banned.

[GoldFireUn]

How much do you want to bet that all these people who act like they know what LGBTQ people are, are themselves LGBTQ?

Is this what you do with everyone who disagrees with you? Insinuate that they have the same lifestyle as yours? That's a major self-own. How embarrassing.

Please educate yourself

Stop saying this, it's just ridiculous.

And a plus, you are allowed to be LGBTQ+ and express yourself without getting banned.

You forgot to add that if a straight person were to play on your server, and refused to otherwise engage in displays of support for your cause (such as, not putting up a pride flag in front of their cobble hut), or if they were to express positive support for parent's rights to govern the education of their children, that person would be banned pretty quick. And if you didn't ban them right away, all they would have to do is press the issue a little. :-) See how this works?

We support everyone and we are kid friendly.

Not gonna touch this because you've already made your true purpose plain. Pretty much everyone can see it now.

All these replies I'm getting are proof that TA is not open to criticism.

You need to start reading the replies more carefully.

Treating LGBTQ+ people differently around children compared to straight and / or cis people is bigotry.

No it isn't. The entire point of LGBT is sexuality. Straight people would get treated the same way if they were as loud and as obnoxious as you have been.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion, I think we've learned all we can here. We need to get this thread back on track, people.

[livphi]

Is

Using a verb? How embarrassing.

this

Oh okay, we're all gonna focus on "this".

Insinuate

This is a long word. I bet you say long words like this to parents on your server to confuse them!

forgot

That's what you do a lot, typical.

positive support

I agree, positive support is pretty nice.

isn't

You just said "Is" earlier. Self-contradictory.

obnoxious

I agree, this whole conversation is obnoxious.

You

I don't believe in pronouns, please don't use "you", it is a pronoun.

track

Yes, I like advtrains, what about it?

[DragonsVolcanoDance]

@livphi - your last post was unnecessary and adds nothing helpful to the topic other then to expose you being a troll.

You should delete it.

[Nininik]

Is

track

Yes, I like advtrains, what about it?

This post dosent convey any message to us (third dimensional existential beings). Would you (the person who I am quoting who's username is livphi) please edit it or remove it? Or at least make it useful.
You seem to have a loss of words at what the person said because you don't agree with them. I personally respect my opinion and keep to it. I don't want someone else to force me to think something.

[Josselin2]

I was banned for talking about sex on a family-friendly server!

I can't see a problem here.

They wouldn't add my favourite mod!

Minetest has a 32k node limit, and TA is already very close to that limit. It was already necessary to remove other mods in order to stay below the limit. It's not reasonable to ask someone to add a controversial mod when there isn't even enough room for ordinary mods.

[FloraMae]

A lot of trolls here.

The argument is simple:
* livphi is a free person entitled to their opinion, so is the admin of TA
* freedom to say something doesn't mean free from consequences
* treating normal LGBTQ+ topics differently than normal heterosexual topics is bigotry
* if you believe it's alright to allow heterosexual topics and relationships around kids but don't believe similar LGBTQ+ topics are alright around kids, that is bigotry
* I, being part of the LGBTQ+ community have a vested interest is doing what I can do end the discrimination that people like me face every day
* just because you may not think something is not discriminatory doesn't mean it's not
* it is also a fact that my player account on TA was banned "for sexual reason" despite that account never bringing up any sexual topics and never making any signs and doing nothing against the rules. I was banned for associating with the enemy apparently
* I noticed a clear swastika on an item on the server, made a request to get it changed to not be so offensive. Was ignored. I made some mod requests, they were ignored. The ignoring of the mod requests didn't push me to create a server, the refusal to fix a clearly and widely considered offensive symbol mixed with how they handled LGBTQ+ topics made me make my final decision to go ahead with a server. The server idea was brewing last year, but I had no real drive to make it happen. Then all this with TA mixed with the apparent lack of inclusive servers convinced me to start one.
* livphi joined my server not long after I had it up and public and one thing led to another and I found out we have a lot in common, including our bad experiences with TA for similar reasons. So, I invited them on.

Anyone who has beliefs that are discriminatory against people or groups of people who have no ability to change things is morally objectionable and I for one refuse to tolerate such around me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with normal LGBTQ+ topics around kids that are also exposed to normal heterosexual/cis topics. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a bigot. Sorry if you don't like the truth.

I will not personally ever play on TA anymore due to the apparent allowed discrimination and bigotry. I don't know who owns it, but if they allow their admins to act that way, they are suspect.

To anyone who is part of the LGBTQ+ community, I don't suggest you play on TA for the above mentioned reasons. Feel free to play anywhere that supports you or at least doesn't discriminate and silence you.

[Blockhead]

* treating normal LGBTQ+ topics differently than normal heterosexual topics is bigotry

The thing you've missed is that the people you're talking to (who run the server) don't want hetero sex ed early either, not until middle or high school at least. Nor do I bet they want any dating on the server - nor do most sensible admins, who realise it is a huge vector for grooming, heartbreak, drama, etc. I would say TA doesn't want to treat any sexual topics.

A long time ago there was this saying "There are no girls on the internet". I know, know, your knee jerk reaction is that is discriminatory language. But hear this: the positive point (I will accept there are negatives) is that there is no favouritism. The internet was populated with a lot of unpopular young men at the time, and they were looking for a way to get away from gender-normative playground politics where a girl gets to show up and get special attention just because she's a girl. Their saying "There are no girls on the internet" can be exclusionary and still contain a kernel of truth.

Why the history lesson? Because there's something to be learned about here. Online, nobody knows your real self, nor should they. There was another saying: "The internet: where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents". To explain it: men are their usual selves; women hide as men to avoid discrimination and men roleplay as women to get attention (note this ties into the first saying); and children (or anyone else immature) can make outlandish claims. In the same way today, you can play Minetest and nobody needs to know your identity: sex, gender, ethnicity, etc, ... Unlike real life where so many people feel the need to "look the part", nobody needs to out themselves as transgender in Minetest; they can just be a skin that matches their expression.

Your ideal space, and I'm glad you're leaving TA for it, is one where the expressions are transparent, and people feel comfortable with identifying as LGBTQ labels and discussing the topic. TA is a space which isn't supporting LGBTQ people's expression. But as a non-dating place (LGB) and a virtual space that doesn't need to know about your real identity, only your virtual one (TQ), TA suffices as a place for LGBTQ-blind expression. That is, it really shouldn't matter. Clearly you're looking for an affirming place, not just a "don't ask don't tell" type policy. Well, I'm glad you have it.

Ultimately, you can't change others, though you have tried. I know you're disappointed, but please move on. I think it is better to leave gracefully. This hasn't been a graceful exit, because both sides keep using trolling tactics:

From the LGBTQ side an insistence that the grow staff definitely is a swastika and a refusal to listen to any other idea about that; burying the mention of a request for the Pride Flags mod until a later response; and a refusal to just call advertising for the server what it is: advertising. It would be better to just say "Yes what we have done amounts to advertising the server". I don't have a problem with the advertising at all, but it has been advertising. There's also not a single concession to the idea that maybe at least some of the LGBTQ topics are sexual in nature; just the usual tired old "it's not a sex thing I swear! Stop trying to censor me!".

From the anti-LGBTQ side, the usual bad faith arguments: conflating same-sex attraction with a "gay lifestyle", bringing in the word "ideology" (which never gets a positive response of course, and basically derails any conversation it enters into - it gets people stuck arguing semantics and not responding to actual individuals' beliefs); a whole lot of waving the flag about families and kids, and especially a load of responding to minutiae and parts of a single sentence in a kind of "wear them down" technique (which got the same kind of behaviour in response, an utterly useless and bitter use of everybody's time).

* I noticed a clear swastika on an item on the server, made a request to get it changed to not be so offensive. Was ignored. I made some mod requests, they were ignored.

Image link

GoldFireUn has commented, and I agree, that it's not obvious that it's a swastika at all. It's not red, white or black, nor is the shape made of a single colour; it has those cyan dots, which would interrupt the swastika shape. It's a 16 px image, so there's only so much room for detail. You know what it looks like to me? A swirl. You just can't fit an accurate swirl in 16px. The cyan dots to me even convey they were trying not to make it look like a swastika so they broke it up.

Livphi has also both referred to the presence of a swastika as both "obvious" and that it was retextured, but later "not serious". Well it can't be both. It was obviously a good talking point once the decision was made to post "Do not join this server if you are LGBTQ+" even if it wasn't a deal breaker earlier.

[livphi]

I'm just putting the link to our server here again in case anyone reading this forum wants a safer, more inclusive, and kid friendly experience.

The IP is 'validandloved.life' and our server name is Valid and Loved Survival. You can find us in the "Join Game" tab.
We have our own gitlab group. All of our mods are open source, even the ones we created. We have no "Secretz" unlike Tunneler's Abyss. If you like a mod we have on our server, please, feel free to use it! Sometimes, we even merge our changes to upstream mods, instead of keeping our changes secret while the mod maintainer gives up. Tunneler's Abyss has its own closed source version of `petz`, and petz's maintainer had to stop maintaining it. I'll let you form an opinion about that. If you'd like to know more about TA's closed source mods, look here: https://tunnelers.miraheze.org/wiki/Secretz .

If you notice any bugs please don't hesitate to make an issue on the mod repositories. We listen to our players and we don't have any developer cronyism. We get bug reports from our players and we don't talk down to them. And you don't have to beg us to change something. I personally always test my changes before committing them. Here is the link to every mod on our server. https://gitlab.com/validandloved .

We have a discord. I'm not putting the link here for obvious reasons. But if we get to know you better we can invite you!

IP: validandloved.life
gitlab: https://gitlab.com/validandloved/
TA's closed source mods: https://tunnelers.miraheze.org/wiki/Secretz

I'm not sure how to notify people here. pups I'd like to show you around the server :) Eris, I think you'd like our server. It's not even a month old and we put a lot of work into it.

[livphi]

Hey everyone. I have some bad opinions. Want to know? You don't? Too bad. Here's a wall of text.

[livphi]

I was banned for talking about sex on a family-friendly server!

I can't see a problem here.

They wouldn't add my favourite mod!

Minetest has a 32k node limit, and TA is already very close to that limit. It was already necessary to remove other mods in order to stay below the limit. It's not reasonable to ask someone to add a controversial mod when there isn't even enough room for ordinary mods.

Constructive criticism: Please try having better reading comprehension before making a comment about something if you want to be taken seriously.

I did not talk about sex. I did not talk about sex positions, hookups, porn, or sexual experiences. I put signs up explaining that I was leaving TA because of CalebJ's belief that understanding that LGBTQ+ people exist is not kid friendly. I put signs up (in my own city!) that said "Protect Trans Kids!". "Protect Queer Kids!", "Anyone can be LGBTQ+". That is not talking about sex. I didn't even mention genitals? If you're gonna say that that mentions genitals. Please don't talk about any human being then. I didn't even use the server chat on the day I got banned. I sent dm's to people I knew explaining why I was leaving. And I sent mail for the same reason. If my mail got deleted, I didn't even say the reason WHY I was leaving in my mail. If it got deleted, please explain to me why, and explain it to all the people I sent it to.

We also don't allow talking about sex at VAL (Valid and Loved). We don't tolerate perverts there either. We have people there of all ages. A lot of them are ex-Tunnelers Abyss players. If your server had better management maybe our server would've never been created and all those people would've stayed?

Josselin2, I saw you in-game sometimes. I never thought you would lie about me like this. I'm very disappointed.

About the node limit. I said that I was fine with that reason. They told me about the node limit before and if you actually read the DMs I sent CalebJ, you would see that I am fine with that reason. I can't believe you're explaining the node limit to me when I mentioned it BEFORE you even posted. Again, please have better reading comprehension.