[Server] Tunnelers' Abyss

[Hume2]

Thank you all for those comments. I think, everything essential was already said here, so let me just wrap it up from an admin's perspective.

1. LGBTQ+ players are allowed and welcome on the server the same as any other players are. For your information, we had at least one long-term player who was trans and we had absolutely no problem with her, even though we knew that she was trans. She even built a trans-flag close to her base and it can be still found there.
EDIT: We are not completely sure about how much the flags shall be allowed, we will discuss that internally.
2. LGBTQ+ has many aspects, some of them are related to sex and intimacy, other are not. The aspects related to sex and intimacy are not allowed to bring on this server, the same way as these aspects of heterosexual relationships are forbidden. All other aspects are allowed to discuss.
3. We do not even claim that the childern should not be taught about the sexual topics, we just won't offer you this server as a medium for doing so. We leave this responsibility to other institutions, there are way better ones than a random Minetest server.
4. From the tone, it looks like it doesn't actually go about LGBTQ+ but about promoting your server. Then I suggest you creating your own thread and posting there. Else I would have to report your posts for being off-topic. If you really believe in the LGBTQ+ ideals, then think about yourself, whether you really do a good service to it.
5. When it goes about the growth staff texture, I didn't notice it myself. That was certainly not intended. I don't even remember it being reported, you could have reported that to our bug tracker. Nevertheless, we may change it anyway, just to prevent these concerns.

PS: Oh, and instead of "go educate yourself", wouldn't it be better to point to a concrete article where people could study the relevant information?

[CalebJ]

I mostly agree with Hume2 although I believe the parents should be the ones to introduce these topics to children and they should decide at what age it is best, not a minetest server. My opinion on this is very accurately portrayed by my leaked discord DM with livphi :))

LGTBQ flags are not family-friendly in our eyes and will not be allowed on this server (by me, anyways) for the reasons I listed there. If you want LGTBQ flags, best to go to another server, like JT2 or the other minetest servers with the `pride_flags` mod.

Nobody is discriminated from this community for personal beliefs unless they use those beliefs to go against the server rules. On any minetest server, you will get banned if you don't follow the rules, so you should read them carefully before putting time and effort into a server. Our rules aren't very hard to follow, so most people fit right in. Just remember that this is a family-friendly server and we don't tolerate sexual innuendo as such.

[Nininik]

Thank you all for those comments. I think, everything essential was already said here, so let me just wrap it up from an admin's perspective.

probably the best response. you don't have to force someone else into believing your opinion, nor raging over someone not wanting to keep to your opinion.

[GoldFireUn]

I agree. Hope we can all live and let live.

[livphi]

Thank you all for those comments. I think, everything essential was already said here, so let me just wrap it up from an admin's perspective.

1. LGBTQ+ players are allowed and welcome on the server the same as any other players are. For your information, we had at least one long-term player who was trans and we had absolutely no problem with her, even though we knew that she was trans. She even built a trans-flag close to her base and it can be still found there.
EDIT: We are not completely sure about how much the flags shall be allowed, we will discuss that internally.
2. LGBTQ+ has many aspects, some of them are related to sex and intimacy, other are not. The aspects related to sex and intimacy are not allowed to bring on this server, the same way as these aspects of heterosexual relationships are forbidden. All other aspects are allowed to discuss.
3. We do not even claim that the childern should not be taught about the sexual topics, we just won't offer you this server as a medium for doing so. We leave this responsibility to other institutions, there are way better ones than a random Minetest server.
4. From the tone, it looks like it doesn't actually go about LGBTQ+ but about promoting your server. Then I suggest you creating your own thread and posting there. Else I would have to report your posts for being off-topic. If you really believe in the LGBTQ+ ideals, then think about yourself, whether you really do a good service to it.
5. When it goes about the growth staff texture, I didn't notice it myself. That was certainly not intended. I don't even remember it being reported, you could have reported that to our bug tracker. Nevertheless, we may change it anyway, just to prevent these concerns.

PS: Oh, and instead of "go educate yourself", wouldn't it be better to point to a concrete article where people could study the relevant information?

Thank you Hume2 for having a respectful response.

I did some research for good articles involving LGBTQ+ kids.
How to support your queer kid: https://pridesource.com/article/so-your-kid-is-queer
How to talk to children about LGBTQIA topics https://www.uvmhealth.org/healthsource/ ... ut-lgbtqia
Instruction about LGBTQ people in elementary school is appropriate https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/bl ... ool-is-age
This one is about how to be a trans ally, which I feel is relevant https://pflag.org/resource/s4e-guide-to ... rans-ally/

Basically, the articles say that kids should be allowed to know that LGBTQ+ people exist. Kids can be LGBTQ at a very young age. Kids should be allowed to express themselves as LGBTQ, and LGBTQ adults should be allowed to express themselves around kids.

Also, I do believe there are some pride flags that kids shouldn't know about. Like the ones about kinks. But the ones that represent a sexuality or gender identity should be fine. All the flags in the `pride_flags` mod seem fine to me.

[pups]

Josselin, hello.
(Josselin is a moderator of the TA server. Also they are just a productive player who has built many nice objects in the game.)

Josselin, where did you take these citations?
"I was banned for talking about sex on a family-friendly server!"
"They wouldn't add my favourite mod!"

I have searched for these messages with my web-browser tools but pages 9 and 10 of the topic do not contain this text as original!
So, were these citations made up by you?

Josselin, this is not honest. People, who are reading the forum, will consider that your opponents exactly wrote these messages. But this is not true!
It seemed that you were a good, wise, kind player in the game. Josselin, what happened? I am surprised about your strange behaviour now.

People, let us be honest at least in terms of quoting messages of our opponents.
The topic has become intricate and messy, unfortunately.

[FloraMae]

* treating normal LGBTQ+ topics differently than normal heterosexual topics is bigotry

The thing you've missed is that the people you're talking to (who run the server) don't want hetero sex ed early either, not until middle or high school at least. Nor do I bet they want any dating on the server - nor do most sensible admins, who realise it is a huge vector for grooming, heartbreak, drama, etc. I would say TA doesn't want to treat any sexual topics.

A long time ago there was this saying "There are no girls on the internet". I know, know, your knee jerk reaction is that is discriminatory language. But hear this: the positive point (I will accept there are negatives) is that there is no favouritism. The internet was populated with a lot of unpopular young men at the time, and they were looking for a way to get away from gender-normative playground politics where a girl gets to show up and get special attention just because she's a girl. Their saying "There are no girls on the internet" can be exclusionary and still contain a kernel of truth.

Why the history lesson? Because there's something to be learned about here. Online, nobody knows your real self, nor should they. There was another saying: "The internet: where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents". To explain it: men are their usual selves; women hide as men to avoid discrimination and men roleplay as women to get attention (note this ties into the first saying); and children (or anyone else immature) can make outlandish claims. In the same way today, you can play Minetest and nobody needs to know your identity: sex, gender, ethnicity, etc, ... Unlike real life where so many people feel the need to "look the part", nobody needs to out themselves as transgender in Minetest; they can just be a skin that matches their expression.

Your ideal space, and I'm glad you're leaving TA for it, is one where the expressions are transparent, and people feel comfortable with identifying as LGBTQ labels and discussing the topic. TA is a space which isn't supporting LGBTQ people's expression. But as a non-dating place (LGB) and a virtual space that doesn't need to know about your real identity, only your virtual one (TQ), TA suffices as a place for LGBTQ-blind expression. That is, it really shouldn't matter. Clearly you're looking for an affirming place, not just a "don't ask don't tell" type policy. Well, I'm glad you have it.

Ultimately, you can't change others, though you have tried. I know you're disappointed, but please move on. I think it is better to leave gracefully. This hasn't been a graceful exit, because both sides keep using trolling tactics:

From the LGBTQ side an insistence that the grow staff definitely is a swastika and a refusal to listen to any other idea about that; burying the mention of a request for the Pride Flags mod until a later response; and a refusal to just call advertising for the server what it is: advertising. It would be better to just say "Yes what we have done amounts to advertising the server". I don't have a problem with the advertising at all, but it has been advertising. There's also not a single concession to the idea that maybe at least some of the LGBTQ topics are sexual in nature; just the usual tired old "it's not a sex thing I swear! Stop trying to censor me!".

From the anti-LGBTQ side, the usual bad faith arguments: conflating same-sex attraction with a "gay lifestyle", bringing in the word "ideology" (which never gets a positive response of course, and basically derails any conversation it enters into - it gets people stuck arguing semantics and not responding to actual individuals' beliefs); a whole lot of waving the flag about families and kids, and especially a load of responding to minutiae and parts of a single sentence in a kind of "wear them down" technique (which got the same kind of behaviour in response, an utterly useless and bitter use of everybody's time).

* I noticed a clear swastika on an item on the server, made a request to get it changed to not be so offensive. Was ignored. I made some mod requests, they were ignored.

Image link

GoldFireUn has commented, and I agree, that it's not obvious that it's a swastika at all. It's not red, white or black, nor is the shape made of a single colour; it has those cyan dots, which would interrupt the swastika shape. It's a 16 px image, so there's only so much room for detail. You know what it looks like to me? A swirl. You just can't fit an accurate swirl in 16px. The cyan dots to me even convey they were trying not to make it look like a swastika so they broke it up.

Livphi has also both referred to the presence of a swastika as both "obvious" and that it was retextured, but later "not serious". Well it can't be both. It was obviously a good talking point once the decision was made to post "Do not join this server if you are LGBTQ+" even if it wasn't a deal breaker earlier.

ahem..
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... y=lossless

Also, nobody is talking about sex ed. Stop being a dummy.

[FloraMae]

Nevertheless, we may change it anyway, just to prevent these concerns.

That would be appreciated.

[Blockhead]

* treating normal LGBTQ+ topics differently than normal heterosexual topics is bigotry

The thing you've missed is that the people you're talking to (who run the server) don't want hetero sex ed early either, not until middle or high school at least. Nor do I bet they want any dating on the server - nor do most sensible admins, who realise it is a huge vector for grooming, heartbreak, drama, etc. I would say TA doesn't want to treat any sexual topics.

[...] nobody is talking about sex ed. Stop being a dummy.

Okay so I read the "topics" covered in one specific way which is probably moving the goalposts - sorry. Anyway, it should be obvious to anyone paying attention that the basis for the LGBTQ+ taboo is religious convictions. Viewed through the humanist lens that is bigotry (= discrimination without valid cause) because religion has no authority or claim in a purely secular society; it exists outside the scientific method* and isn't in line with a secular and liberal code of ethics. What does all this mean? It means that because your belief systems are different treatment of LGBTQ topics can fit your definition of bigotry but not others'.

I think that as far as moderation goes, CalebJ has tried to be really tactful without changing his views, which I hope demonstrates acting in good faith and not hostility. Conflict was pretty much inevitable though, and why moving away is best for both parties.

*not that religious texts, especially the Torah, aren't well-attested, there are so many copies and they all agree on the important details, but divine inspiration isn't a valid source in an atheist framework.

I'm not here to debate, just elucidate why there's a natural conflict with your belief system and what I think is that of the TA moderation, so don't bother mentioning that there are different sets of beliefs, I know about fundamentalist vs liberal Judaism/Christianity/etc. already. You'd only be trying too hard to change people's beliefs and nobody does that just because of an internet debate.

Livphi has also both referred to the presence of a swastika as both "obvious" and that it was retextured, but later "not serious". Well it can't be both. It was obviously a good talking point once the decision was made to post "Do not join this server if you are LGBTQ+" even if it wasn't a deal breaker earlier.

ahem..
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... y=lossless

It's impossible for me to look at it with fresh eyes now, but I can see how it's best to just change it to cut off the potential of it looking that way. It is a shame that the mod wasn't change in a timely fashion. It probably would have been fine if it were horizontally flipped and looked like the Buddhist one, but I'll leave design decisions up to others.

[CalebJ]

The grow staff texture has now been updated in both Tunnelers' Abyss and on the ContentDB, changes may take a little while to display in-game.

[livphi]

The thing you've missed is that the people you're talking to (who run the server) don't want hetero sex ed early either, not until middle or high school at least. Nor do I bet they want any dating on the server - nor do most sensible admins, who realise it is a huge vector for grooming, heartbreak, drama, etc. I would say TA doesn't want to treat any sexual topics.

[...] nobody is talking about sex ed. Stop being a dummy.

Okay so I read the "topics" covered in one specific way which is probably moving the goalposts - sorry. Anyway, it should be obvious to anyone paying attention that the basis for the LGBTQ+ taboo is religious convictions. Viewed through the humanist lens that is bigotry (= discrimination without valid cause) because religion has no authority or claim in a purely secular society; it exists outside the scientific method* and isn't in line with a secular and liberal code of ethics. What does all this mean? It means that because your belief systems are different treatment of LGBTQ topics can fit your definition of bigotry but not others'.

I think that as far as moderation goes, CalebJ has tried to be really tactful without changing his views, which I hope demonstrates acting in good faith and not hostility. Conflict was pretty much inevitable though, and why moving away is best for both parties.

*not that religious texts, especially the Torah, aren't well-attested, there are so many copies and they all agree on the important details, but divine inspiration isn't a valid source in an atheist framework.

I'm not here to debate, just elucidate why there's a natural conflict with your belief system and what I think is that of the TA moderation, so don't bother mentioning that there are different sets of beliefs, I know about fundamentalist vs liberal Judaism/Christianity/etc. already. You'd only be trying too hard to change people's beliefs and nobody does that just because of an internet debate.

Livphi has also both referred to the presence of a swastika as both "obvious" and that it was retextured, but later "not serious". Well it can't be both. It was obviously a good talking point once the decision was made to post "Do not join this server if you are LGBTQ+" even if it wasn't a deal breaker earlier.

ahem..
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... y=lossless

It's impossible for me to look at it with fresh eyes now, but I can see how it's best to just change it to cut off the potential of it looking that way. It is a shame that the mod wasn't change in a timely fashion. It probably would have been fine if it were horizontally flipped and looked like the Buddhist one, but I'll leave design decisions up to others.

Not everyone's reasoning is valid. CalebJ should change his belief about LGBTQ+ people. Please read the links I replied to Hume2 with (an easy opportunity to go educate yourself). Also, why are you waffling about religion? Why are you making this a religious thing when no one even mentioned religion? Not everyone follows religion the same way. I've personally met a lot of LGBTQ supportive Christians. If you choose to be bigoted and say that its part of your religion, then you're using your religion as an excuse to be a bigot.

[Blockhead]

Not everyone's reasoning is valid. CalebJ should change his belief about LGBTQ+ people. Please read the links I replied to Hume2 with (an easy opportunity to go educate yourself). Also, why are you waffling about religion? Why are you making this a religious thing when no one even mentioned religion?

Why bring religion up? Because it's vital to understanding most of the objections to LGTBQ ideas. Because of background knowledge on CalebJ and because as an irreligious person you can't understand why someone would believe anti-LGBTQ things. I've tried to explain it to you, but clearly it's not something you want to grasp. It's much easier to simply hold your own single set of beliefs and I can't fault you for wanting to do so.

Not everyone follows religion the same way. I've personally met a lot of LGBTQ supportive Christians. If you choose to be bigoted and say that its part of your religion, then you're using your religion as an excuse to be a bigot.

I would really like to take the time to explain the difference between using religion as a pretext to bigotry (stereotype: MAGA hat neo-nazi who wants an excuse to bash gay men up) and actually trying to love one's neighbour while condemning their sin, but even if I could explain it accurately, it's not agreeable with your personal set of beliefs to not affirm LGBTQ people, so it makes no practical difference whether you think failure to affirm is unfounded bigotry or discrimination with logically self-consistent basis.

Sorry to have wasted more time in bringing the topic up again. I'd hope to foster more understanding but I need to remind myself nobody is changing their minds from internet debates as usual. I'll cut myself off from responding now, it's better that way.

[Nininik]

Not everyone's reasoning is valid. CalebJ should change his belief about LGBTQ+ people. Please read the links I replied to Hume2 with (an easy opportunity to go educate yourself). Also, why are you waffling about religion? Why are you making this a religious thing when no one even mentioned religion?

Why bring religion up? Because it's vital to understanding most of the objections to LGTBQ ideas. Because of background knowledge on CalebJ and because as an irreligious person you can't understand why someone would believe anti-LGBTQ things. I've tried to explain it to you, but clearly it's not something you want to grasp. It's much easier to simply hold your own single set of beliefs and I can't fault you for wanting to do so.

I don't think you have to rub your opinion into someone's face even if you don't like it, they may not change it and don't have to. Especially if they are religious.

[livphi]

Read the links

[GoldFireUn]

Read the links

The links do not override the fundamental human rights to 1) free association, 2) personal boundaries. I literally could not care less if you are tentacled aliens from Alpha Centauri ---- a person's right to express themselves in any way they wish stops at the boundary of someone else's property or person. This applies to everyone.

Until @Blockhead wrote about religions issues, to my reading, no one prior to Blockhead's post has made a religiously-based argument. When I used the word "ideology", it was in the context of hinting that going there is not advisable and irrelevant.

This is not a religious matter, it is a civil matter. I do not mean to sound harsh, but bringing religion into this is pure troll-bate. I get that people were probably trying to be diplomatic and/or conciliatory by explaining those remarks, but the simple fact is, livphi and FloraMae are not looking for rational debate. They want bait and drama, and they've made that very clear. Please, I implore everyone to step away from the abyss that a religious argument will surely become.

In my view, the only point that really need to be reiterated is this: respect boundaries. Do not try to force others to agree with you. Do not run smear jobs. Do not go around calling people bigots. Do not tell lies or bear false witness. Etc. etc. etc.

[livphi]

You don't get to discriminate against people for "religious reasons" and think it exempts you from criticism or getting consequences. You're still a bigot, and you still deserve to be ridiculed. There's no debate about this. These responses are proof that we need the pride_flags mod.

[GoldFireUn]

Your refusal to respect other people's boundaries makes you far worse than a bigot. That is all that needs to be said.

[pups]

I would like to speak out my opinion about this vain "family-friendly" or "kid-friendly" status of the server.

1.
I see that a player has been punished for "bringing on sexual topics".

What are these "sexual topics"?
What does the phrase "talking about sex" mean?

I do not see exact citations from the game chat demonstrating the player's guilt.
Admins/owners of the server are hiding any evidences of the player's crime.
So, do some evidences really exist? I doubt if this is true.

2.
Let us consider the following phrase:
- There are boys and girls on the planet Earth.
It is a talk about sex, because we mention the sexes in this sentence.
So, you may banish a player from a "family-friendly" server for saying such a phrase.

On the other hand, any server has animals in the game.
The TA server is not an exception. There is module Petz on the server.
In this module we see animals of male and female sex.
Moreover, these animals become pregnant and bring cubs!
We can open a "passport" of a female animal and see its scale "pregnancy":)
And it is "ok" for this "family-friendly" server!

Admins/owners keep this terrible "sexual" module.
While the theme "LGBTQ" is treated as "talking about sex":)
What a hypocrisy!

In addition, a player can kill animals, cubs. Is it "kid-friendly"?

3.
Be honest with yourself! Your server is not so "family-friendly" as you believe:)
You come across "talking about sex" on each step on the server, in dialogues, in modules.
Your server is not "family-friendly" or "kid-friendly". This is an evident fact.

And you can never create a public "family-friendly" server in the internet:)
You can only watch over the game chat in order to promptly erase swearing and "bad words" from the log:)
And you can not control private messages in the game, you can not verify all the books, signs, etc in the game.

That is why your server has never been "family-friendly". And it will never be such.
And this hypocritical conflict reveals that you do not understand this obvious fact.

[livphi]

I would like to speak out my opinion about this vain "family-friendly" or "kid-friendly" status of the server.

1.
I see that a player has been punished for "bringing on sexual topics".

What are these "sexual topics"?
What does the phrase "talking about sex" mean?

I do not see exact citations from the game chat demonstrating the player's guilt.
Admins/owners of the server are hiding any evidences of the player's crime.
So, do some evidences really exist? I doubt if this is true.

2.
Let us consider the following phrase:
- There are boys and girls on the planet Earth.
It is a talk about sex, because we mention the sexes in this sentence.
So, you may banish a player from a "family-friendly" server for saying such a phrase.

On the other hand, any server has animals in the game.
The TA server is not an exception. There is module Petz on the server.
In this module we see animals of male and female sex.
Moreover, these animals become pregnant and bring cubs!
We can open a "passport" of a female animal and see its scale "pregnancy":)
And it is "ok" for this "family-friendly" server!

Admins/owners keep this terrible "sexual" module.
While the theme "LGBTQ" is treated as "talking about sex":)
What a hypocrisy!

In addition, a player can kill animals, cubs. Is it "kid-friendly"?

3.
Be honest with yourself! Your server is not so "family-friendly" as you believe:)
You come across "talking about sex" on each step on the server, in dialogues, in modules.
Your server is not "family-friendly" or "kid-friendly". This is an evident fact.

And you can never create a public "family-friendly" server in the internet:)
You can only watch over the game chat in order to promptly erase swearing and "bad words" from the log:)
And you can not control private messages in the game, you can not verify all the books, signs, etc in the game.

That is why your server has never been "family-friendly". And it will never be such.
And this hypocritical conflict reveals that you do not understand this obvious fact.

I honestly was thinking about bringing up the `petz` mod on the server. And how you can impregnate animals and see their sex. (And also, one of my pet peeves is that its labeled "Gender" instead of "Sex" but that isn't that big of an issue to me, just a little annoying) But this in my opinion isn't that bad for kids to know. Kids can know that pregnancy is a thing, and that people and animals have different body parts. But to turn around and treat anything LGBTQ as a "sexual topic" is ridiculous.

Why do you get to go around collecting animals based on their sex, then making the female animal pregnant. Being able to see the pregnancy status of the animal. How is this not considered by CalebJ a sexual topic?? This should be seen as even worse (in his eyes) than a colorful flag symbolizing sometimes men love men or women love women or sometimes people realized they're a different gender than they were assigned or sometimes someone is neither a man nor woman. If a rainbow flag somehow only symbolizes a vivid image of two men having sex, why is feeding two animals to make them breed not seen as a vivid depiction of sex between two animals?? Where is all the pearl clutching over the `petz` mod?? And how the `petz` mod is promoting sexual topics to children?! But it's somehow not okay to even MENTION that LGBTQ+ people exist? I'm not reading replies to this message unless you agree with me. You are not worth listening to. Go give your mom a hug or something.

[DragonsVolcanoDance]

I think Tunneler's Abyss owners have made it clear that they do not want their server to become a springboard for controversial topics. Since the start of this discussion, we have seen a lot of name-calling, accusations of discrimination, advertisements of a server where it is the least appropriate, and somehow the words "Nazi" and "swastika" got mentioned in the process and tied in with the server in some way.

This resulting drama over the pride_flags mod is another reason for why it should never be added to Tunneler's Abyss. It is causing far too much controversy, something that I am sure most people do not want to get involved in when logging onto their favorite minetest server.

Speaking of discrimination, that brings me to another point: I don't think you (livphi) understand what it means.



Now, I don't speak for CalebJ or Hume2, but from reading their posts it appears that they have no problem with LGBTQ+ people on their server, owing to the fact that they mentioned a trans person playing there for a while and they had no issues with her being trans. They also seem to have had no issue with you either - until you started trying to force your personal identify onto the server.
You took it so far as to publicly shame them for refusing your request. I am certain - and CalebJ is welcome to correct me if I am wrong - that they would have NEVER publicly outed your identify/belief and told other people to shame you for it, as you are doing to them right now.

Are you sure you are not the one being discriminatory?

There is module Petz on the server.
In this module we see animals of male and female sex.
Moreover, these animals become pregnant and bring cubs!
We can open a "passport" of a female animal and see its scale "pregnancy":)
And it is "ok" for this "family-friendly" server!

Admins/owners keep this terrible "sexual" module.
While the theme "LGBTQ" is treated as "talking about sex":)
What a hypocrisy!

In addition, a player can kill animals, cubs. Is it "kid-friendly"?

I do agree that the petz mod has some ... questionable ... mechanics to it that I would personally remove.

However... the comparison to LGBTQ+ topics does not exist here because it is based on a false assumption. Hume2 has clearly stated they have absolutely no problem with LGBTQ+ people on their server, and that they are treated with the same respect as anyone else, as all humans should be.

They simply do not want to add the pride_flags mod for a plethora of reasons, one of which being the celebration of sexual preferences/identities in front of children. The petz mod is simply a mod that adds a lot of new animals to your server, and part of that mod involves breeding them. The soul goal of the mod is not to "celebrate" impregnating and killing animals. (if it was, I wouldn't want that mod on my server either!) The goal of pride_flags is to celebrate sexual identities and preferences, which they have made clear they don't want to do. I know this might come as a shocker for some people, but you can treat anyone with respect and human decency without celebrating what they do behind closed doors. What people do in their own lives is up to them, and shouldn't need to be shoved down the throats of people that just want to live and let live.

I think I hear some bridges burning... oh well.

We don't need to force anyone to agree with us, and at this point livphi, your continuing to argue on this server thread is becoming more and more of a moot point because even if they did add your requested mod and unban you, you probably wouldn't return anyway.

Whether killing animals in a game is kid-friendly or not is a completely different discussion I won't get into.

[CalebJ]

Tunnelers' Abyss now has it's own Highscore leaderboard operating on over 5 years of collected data, which highlights the top 10 players for their major accomplishments on the server!

[Josselin2]

Exciting new activity: which player can lose the most points in a 24 hour period?

[livphi]

Have you decided if pride flags should be allowed on the server? Am I going to be unbanned?

[Hume2]

Have you decided if pride flags should be allowed on the server? Am I going to be unbanned?

At first, we were not considering justifying your acts at all, only whether it is allowed to build the pride flags in the same manner as before. And you already built way more pride flags than everyone else throughout the server's history. We decided that pride flags shall be no longer built, as there is no logical way to prevent people from overusing them. Even if we allowed one such flag per player, it could still get out of control. An exemption could be given to the flags built before this incident, as their builders were not responsible for provoking it.

[livphi]

Have you decided if pride flags should be allowed on the server? Am I going to be unbanned?

At first, we were not considering justifying your acts at all, only whether it is allowed to build the pride flags in the same manner as before. And you already built way more pride flags than everyone else throughout the server's history. We decided that pride flags shall be no longer built, as there is no logical way to prevent people from overusing them. Even if we allowed one such flag per player, it could still get out of control. An exemption could be given to the flags built before this incident, as their builders were not responsible for provoking it.

My "acts"? All I did was put signs around and CalebJ banned me without warning. Explain to me how a sign with "Protect trans kids!" on it is "bringing on sexual topics". Please show me the screenshots of the signs I made in my own town where there are "sexual topics". I know there's a bug where too many pride flags in one mapchunk causes a crash or something. What do you mean by "overusing"? I'm assuming you're referring to the bug I mentioned. What is "out of control" to you?

You can't just go "Oh we had a trans player on here before" and also "We're banning you without warning for supporting the trans community and we're calling that a sexual topic". You can say you support trans people but your actions say otherwise. You're fine with trans people as long as they hide their identity. That's not being supportive, its being bigoted.

Edit: Does that trans person you mentioned still play on TA? Big shocker if they don't.